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QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Encouraging teamwork

Postby TheeLord » Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:22 pm

Lots of survival games have tons of incentive for people to cooperate, but it still rarely seems to happen with strangers. But when it does, the game is 100x more fun (at least in my opinion). What ideas does everyone have to encourage teamwork in Factions without forcing it or giving unfair advantages to anyone?

Some we have come up with that should make it to the game:

-Resource scarcity (not all resources are everywhere, you need to explore to find them.
-Skill scarcity (it is hard to aquire all the skills you need to thrive by yourself)
-Interfaces for managing your faction. (We don't want to depend solely on people to initiate communications with someone else, sometimes it's easier just to click a few things in the interface to accomplish what you want)
-New player faction options. You can choose to start by yourself, but you can also choose to start with a Faction that is accepting of new players or start in the Faction of one of your friends.

What other ideas do you have?
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Encouraging teamwork

Postby Ameridat » Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:54 am

Could you be more specific about types of cooperation that you would like to encourage?
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Encouraging teamwork

Postby Triadian » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:25 am

well i think most of us agree MMORPG are no longer multiplayer games - they are just solo play games in a world full of other people, while many provide hard places that require 5 or more people (aka dungeons/raid) they have kind of lost that multiplayer feeling

so were trying to figure out what actually makes the difference between a multiplayer game and solo game with other players.

how can we encourage players to use and co-operate with other players instead of doing it themselves,

if we said the only way to get a resource was to travel for 4 hours or use a trader that already traveled those 4 hours how many of you would moan that YOU couldnt get the resource and had to buy it ? because it was too far away. this scenario for us means you all talk to each other to see if anyone else has that resource, it opens up gameplay opportunities for travelers to buy low and sell high, and it promotes a world full of people who NEED to co-operate as society rather than stay in their own little garrison and do everything without moving more than 2 mins away. hopefully from that our community are less toxic to each other as one day the person they are being toxic too might be the 1 person that has something they need.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Encouraging teamwork

Postby Ameridat » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:41 pm

I understand. Very helpful. So what you might have in terms of activities where cooperation would be beneficial are things like:

Farming (either natural resources or body parts or collected drops)

Import / Export (goods plentiful in one area, but not in others that need transport)

Parts production / refining (development of components or improved materials) (smith makes buckles for LW, refining gold ore into purified gold, etc)

Merchandising (player owned operated vendor)

Crafters (raw materials, component materials into finished or semi-finished goods)

...

From this I see 5 things forming:

1. Anything performance enhancing would be largely sought after. Assuming demand is greater than supply, that stuff should be a win for anyone producing / assisting / selling. I think that implies, good gear has limited durability and limited repairability.

2. Players follow the path of least resistance. If it's easier to buy from a player, they might do so. However, this whole pattern of self-sufficiency might be so well embedded in player mind at this time that it's difficult to have them play any other way. I guarantee that some will try, and most likely complain if they cannot.

3. Game mechanics could reward game activity that fuels cooperation. I don't know how you are handling progression, but some sort of progression reward just for harvesting, so harvesting + sales becomes a desirable profession.

4. Limit the number of skills that can be had by a single character, and tie those skills to progression so it's not trivial to just roll a half dozen alts and skill them up.

5. Given #4, that sort of implies slow progression.

Vanguard might be useful as reference.

Just my 2 cents on this. I'm quite sure none of this is new thought, but sharing what I see.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Encouraging teamwork

Postby Triadian » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:53 pm

a few things i would like to clarify - while we do plan on limiting what one person can do we are not limiting what one person can do - for example :- imagine a skillpool of 100 skills each of those has 20 levels giving a total of 2000 stages now imagine you only have 500 points to spend - you could level a few to max or you could level all to a bad standard.

also we have no real progression other than letting players advance in whatever skillset they chose.

thanks for your thoughts.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Encouraging teamwork

Postby Jetcutter » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:57 am

Totally difficult to weigh in on this. I guess I'm of the mind that I would take a try and evaluate stance, on what you folks have in mind.
I mean, I could spout off theories of my expectations, but until I see what direction development is headed, it makes it hard to critique.
Sorry.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Encouraging teamwork

Postby Triadian » Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:34 am

doesnt have to be a critique - spout off your expectations maybe you will hit upon something we didnt think of and if we like it and think its do-able we may implement it.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Encouraging teamwork

Postby RajCaj » Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:39 pm

TheeLord wrote:Lots of survival games have tons of incentive for people to cooperate, but it still rarely seems to happen with strangers. But when it does, the game is 100x more fun (at least in my opinion). What ideas does everyone have to encourage teamwork in Factions without forcing it or giving unfair advantages to anyone?

Some we have come up with that should make it to the game:

-Resource scarcity (not all resources are everywhere, you need to explore to find them.
-Skill scarcity (it is hard to aquire all the skills you need to thrive by yourself)
-Interfaces for managing your faction. (We don't want to depend solely on people to initiate communications with someone else, sometimes it's easier just to click a few things in the interface to accomplish what you want)
-New player faction options. You can choose to start by yourself, but you can also choose to start with a Faction that is accepting of new players or start in the Faction of one of your friends.

What other ideas do you have?


You all have the major drivers covered...essentially, there has to be a struggle (constraints) & a reward for people to be sufficiently motivated to band together to get the reward.

Some kind of indicator of a player's reputation could be helpful when determining who's trust worthy & who's not. Ultima Online had a very basic reputation system in place that automatically attributed positive or negative reputation for performing certain acts in the game. Each time a player did some "negative act" (healed NPC a player in good standing is fighting, stealing, murder) they gained a certain amount of negative rep...which is reflected by the title a character has. Conversely, players who do "positive acts" would receive positive rep. Players who were "bad guys" would show a title of "Dread Lord", while "good guys" had a title of "Lord"....with different titles across the bad / good spectrum in between.

Lineage 2 had a reputation system where each player was given a certain amount of "recommendations" per day that they could use to give other player's "kudos" for acts of kindness, or for what ever reason a player had to give one of their allotted recommendations. The more recommendations a player received, the more "blue" their name in game appeared.

Crafters & swords for hire might work to build their reputation by doing nice things in game so that they can better market their services (kind of like ratings on ebay, or "thanks" in web forums)

Other than that....the games I've seen where people are anti-social toward one another are in games where they have no pay-off to cooperate. That might be because they don't need help to get the things they want (see World of Warcraft), or where there is little expectations of actually keeping the stuff they've acquired that they don't care to cooperate (DayZ, H1Z1, etc.) You have to have some skin in the game.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Encouraging teamwork

Postby TheeLord » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:48 pm

RajCaj wrote:or where there is little expectations of actually keeping the stuff they've acquired that they don't care to cooperate (DayZ, H1Z1, etc.) You have to have some skin in the game.


Hmm I think you may have nailed it with this statement. I've been trying to figure out why people don't cooperate more in the various MO survival games more, and now that I'm thinking back to when I play them, this is exactly the feeling I get. "Why seek out others, why try hard to build anything substantive. It will just get destroyed in a few days time most likely"

I think we need to work harder to prevent this situation, but also be sure that things aren't so static that people feel completely safe to work alone. It really is a very tough balancing act. :?
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Encouraging teamwork

Postby Triadian » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:15 pm

RajCaj wrote:Some kind of indicator of a player's reputation could be helpful when determining who's trust worthy & who's not.


which did you prefer UO or L2 ? or is there a different better way ?

assuming there are 2 opposing factions and 1 person who goes between them - one faction thinks hes really good +rep the other thinks he's really bad -rep. should the people in the first faction see him as good, bad or neutral ?
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Encouraging teamwork

Postby RajCaj » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:06 pm

TheeLord wrote:
RajCaj wrote:or where there is little expectations of actually keeping the stuff they've acquired that they don't care to cooperate (DayZ, H1Z1, etc.) You have to have some skin in the game.


Hmm I think you may have nailed it with this statement. I've been trying to figure out why people don't cooperate more in the various MO survival games more, and now that I'm thinking back to when I play them, this is exactly the feeling I get. "Why seek out others, why try hard to build anything substantive. It will just get destroyed in a few days time most likely"

I think we need to work harder to prevent this situation, but also be sure that things aren't so static that people feel completely safe to work alone. It really is a very tough balancing act. :?


It is a tough balancing act! Ultimately most things for a player come down to a risk vs reward equation.

My idea is that people more "attached" to a game, as they invest more into it. That investment might be in the form of monthly sub rates, or it might be in the form of time...but the more a person has put into it, the less likely they are to leave over minor (or even major) issues with the game.

If those investments are being constantly wiped, or lost, then it's that much easier for a player to walk away from the game.

Another important dynamic to consider is how a player values a reward or item in the game. Like most things in life, nothing of value is typically gotten easy. You could allow for a player to keep all the fruits of investments made in the game and they'll still walk away easily if those fruits were easily gotten.

This is just my experience, but the reasons I played many games longer than I probably should was because the consequence of quitting meant I was throwing away a virtual person who has acquired both intangible & tangible things over 4 years....all the friends, memories, rare items, prime real estate, weapons, armor & developed characters. There were actually several occasions that I was on the verge of quitting until taking inventory of the stuff I had in a bank or seeing all the people logged into my guild TeamSpeak server...who I considered friends.

So it's important to make the game challenging....but just be careful how much of that challenge comes from consequences relating to loosing gained wealth & tangible items in game. I believe there is a direct correlation between a player's appraisal of their total net worth (tangible & intangible assets) & their likeliness to walk away from the game.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Encouraging teamwork

Postby RajCaj » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:27 pm

Triadian wrote:
RajCaj wrote:Some kind of indicator of a player's reputation could be helpful when determining who's trust worthy & who's not.


which did you prefer UO or L2 ? or is there a different better way ?

assuming there are 2 opposing factions and 1 person who goes between them - one faction thinks hes really good +rep the other thinks he's really bad -rep. should the people in the first faction see him as good, bad or neutral ?


I think for a 2 (or 3) faction system, you could get away with something more like UO (or even WOW), where there is a standard system for assigning rep. Players of a particular faction could get + faction rep points for killing opposing faction members, helping out fellow faction members (would have to brain storm how you'd measure this), building / crafting items for your faction. Conversely, a player could get negative rep for healing / buffing opposing faction members, killing same faction members, damaging same faction structures, etc.

Faction Rep could also influence how same & opposing faction NPCs deal with you (might be friendly, hostile, could offer discounts, or make special items available for purchase)

In terms of how other factions see a player's rep....I think the rep could be specific to that faction. So if you switched factions, your official faction rep would reset....or might require a player "work off" negative faction rep to neutral standing before they'd be allowed to join.

(Actually, as I'm writing this, I realized it sounds a lot like WOW's Faction Rep system)

For example....if "Player A" joins Shadow Lord faction and helps raid an opposing Minax faction base....they'd get + faction rep for Shadow Lord & - faction rep for Minax. IF at some point "Player A" wanted to switch to Minax, they'd start with a deficit in that faction rep and would have to work their way up.

I didn't beat this idea up very much, so there may be some unintended consequences or exploitive areas to be figured out...but I hope you get the general idea.
Last edited by RajCaj on Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Encouraging teamwork

Postby Triadian » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:39 pm

It is a tough balancing act! Ultimately most things for a player come down to a risk vs reward equation.

My idea is that people more "attached" to a game, as they invest more into it. That investment might be in the form of monthly sub rates, or it might be in the form of time...but the more a person has put into it, the less likely they are to leave over minor (or even major) issues with the game.

If those investments are being constantly wiped, or lost, then it's that much easier for a player to walk away from the game.

Another important dynamic to consider is how a player values a reward or item in the game. Like most things in life, nothing of value is typically gotten easy. You could allow for a player to keep all the fruits of investments made in the game and they'll still walk away easily if those fruits were easily gotten.

This is just my experience, but the reasons I played many games longer than I probably should was because the consequence of quitting meant I was throwing away a virtual person who has acquired both intangible & tangible things over 4 years....all the friends, memories, rare items, prime real estate, weapons, armor & developed characters. There were actually several occasions that I was on the verge of quitting until taking inventory of the stuff I had in a bank or seeing all the people logged into my guild TeamSpeak server...who I considered friends.

So it's important to make the game challenging....but just be careful how much of that challenge comes from consequences relating to loosing gained wealth & tangible items in game. I believe there is a direct correlation between a player's appraisal of their total net worth (tangible & intangible assets) & their likeliness to walk away from the game.

wot no quote ? lol i was just resaying it all as i think its 100% truthful and FACT!!!.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Encouraging teamwork

Postby Triadian » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:41 pm

RajCaj wrote:I think for a 2 (or 3) faction system, you could get away with something more standardized like UO's. Players of a particular faction could get + rep points for killing opposing faction members, helping out fellow faction members (would have to brain storm how you'd measure this), building / crafting items for your faction. Conversely could get negative rep for healing / buffing opposing faction members, killing same faction members, damaging same faction structures, etc.

Faction Rep could also influence how same & opposing faction NPCs deal with you (might be friendly, hostile, could offer discounts, or make special items available for purchase)


Lol were called factions :P 2 or 3 ??? lol think more like Millions :P ok maybe thousands.... ;) ok hundreds :thumbsup:
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Encouraging teamwork

Postby RajCaj » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:45 pm

Triadian wrote:
RajCaj wrote:I think for a 2 (or 3) faction system, you could get away with something more standardized like UO's. Players of a particular faction could get + rep points for killing opposing faction members, helping out fellow faction members (would have to brain storm how you'd measure this), building / crafting items for your faction. Conversely could get negative rep for healing / buffing opposing faction members, killing same faction members, damaging same faction structures, etc.

Faction Rep could also influence how same & opposing faction NPCs deal with you (might be friendly, hostile, could offer discounts, or make special items available for purchase)


Lol were called factions :P 2 or 3 ??? lol think more like Millions :P ok maybe thousands.... ;) ok hundreds :thumbsup:


yes, sorry....I forgot factions are essentially guilds / clans for this game. In that case, yes...you'd likely have 100s of factions. I suppose the same system could work, regardless if it's 2-3 or 200-300.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Encouraging teamwork

Postby whiskers434 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:27 pm

there needs to be enough basic resources available for people to survive other wise players panic and its every man for him self, the strong kill the week etc over food and water to survive think

need to balance needing food and water to survive with enough food and water to support the players so they will start working together to build other projects like faction bases which they can't on there own.

but if there is a famine or a drought in a part of the map and there's no food or water then all hell will break loss and its every man for himself to survive - probably won't happen though
think a reset and wipe will fix that...
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Encouraging teamwork

Postby Triadian » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:22 pm

whiskers434 wrote:probably won't happen though


now you gave me the idea it will :P

winter is coming.....
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Encouraging teamwork

Postby Davis Kujala » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:30 am

heyheyhey
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Encouraging teamwork

Postby TheeLord » Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:41 pm

what up fat Albert =)
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