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More Questions

Postby Sploosh » Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:02 pm

Hey guys, my last post covered a few questions I had, but now that some time has gone by I'm wondering if any answers have changed.

Primarily, I'm wondering how combat will work given that now all major VR HMD's (Vive, Rift, Morpheus) have a wand like input solution. You mentioned before, that you wanted tab targeting style combat and I was wondering if you still planning that even with hand input that will provide 6DOF tracking?

I'm also wondering more about how this game will take advantage of being in VR. Other than basic camera support and an HMD friendly UI of course. I hope I don't sound too critical, but from what I've seen from the plans of the game so far, it seems more like a 2D sandbox MMO with VR support tacked on. As someone from the outside, it doesn't look like this game is being made with VR in mind.

I'd love for this to be my dream VR MMO. That to me is essentially Darkfall or a TES: Online game, but made right and made for VR. Weapon and hand movement that correlates with your own hands, locked FPV, and full freedom in a sandbox world. More like living in another world than playing a game. Of course you guys have your own ideas and it is your game, but I really think that my description is what a lot of people would want in a made for VR MMO.
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Re: More Questions

Postby whiskers434 » Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:39 pm

thanks for your questions, in short yes this game is being built very much with VR in mind

theelord is leading the charge with VR stuff so he should have more info for you and answers for your questions
think a reset and wipe will fix that...
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Re: More Questions

Postby Triadian » Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:19 pm

Sploosh wrote:Hey guys, my last post covered a few questions I had, but now that some time has gone by I'm wondering if any answers have changed.

Primarily, I'm wondering how combat will work given that now all major VR HMD's (Vive, Rift, Morpheus) have a wand like input solution. You mentioned before, that you wanted tab targeting style combat and I was wondering if you still planning that even with hand input that will provide 6DOF tracking?


what we meant by tab targetting wasn't that youpress tab to target - it was more like one you have targetted something once you dont need to target it again - we plan on both mouse or head targetting we are still not 100% on the way it will work for VR but based on a central targetting beam (possibly invisible) that will need a click of a button to actually select the target.

Sploosh wrote:I'm also wondering more about how this game will take advantage of being in VR. Other than basic camera support and an HMD friendly UI of course. I hope I don't sound too critical, but from what I've seen from the plans of the game so far, it seems more like a 2D sandbox MMO with VR support tacked on. As someone from the outside, it doesn't look like this game is being made with VR in mind.


what features do you think we could add to enhance the gameplay for VR players ?
Sploosh wrote:I'd love for this to be my dream VR MMO. That to me is essentially Darkfall or a TES: Online game, but made right and made for VR. Weapon and hand movement that correlates with your own hands, locked FPV, and full freedom in a sandbox world. More like living in another world than playing a game. Of course you guys have your own ideas and it is your game, but I really think that my description is what a lot of people would want in a made for VR MMO.


as for the locked FPV i personally am against restricting people so we plan on allowing both 3PV and FPV

while hand based weapon systems which i think your hinting are fine for single player games they become a whole new story when placed in a MMO environment, if you see your sword hit but the server sees your sword miss due to 100ms lag then things get complicated, if we add a system that counters your lag what happens when the person you hit whose on 700ms lag sees you miss ? its a technical minefield that we could do to some ability but based on games like mortal and those other swing based combat games its doesnt always work that good.

while most of the images we have show a standard 2d mmo game - we added them just for ease of use and do have ideas in mind for a more 3d type ui - it has even been started in the object system where you need to look at an object and hold right mouse (changable) to see a selection of uses for that object.

as we have said many a time if you have suggestions then please feel free to suggest them let us know what you want and provided we dont see any downsides we will probably incorporate it or at least involve the best parts of it into what we already have in mind.
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Re: More Questions

Postby TheeLord » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:24 pm

Sploosh wrote:Hey guys, my last post covered a few questions I had, but now that some time has gone by I'm wondering if any answers have changed.

Primarily, I'm wondering how combat will work given that now all major VR HMD's (Vive, Rift, Morpheus) have a wand like input solution. You mentioned before, that you wanted tab targeting style combat and I was wondering if you still planning that even with hand input that will provide 6DOF tracking?

I'm also wondering more about how this game will take advantage of being in VR. Other than basic camera support and an HMD friendly UI of course. I hope I don't sound too critical, but from what I've seen from the plans of the game so far, it seems more like a 2D sandbox MMO with VR support tacked on. As someone from the outside, it doesn't look like this game is being made with VR in mind.

I'd love for this to be my dream VR MMO. That to me is essentially Darkfall or a TES: Online game, but made right and made for VR. Weapon and hand movement that correlates with your own hands, locked FPV, and full freedom in a sandbox world. More like living in another world than playing a game. Of course you guys have your own ideas and it is your game, but I really think that my description is what a lot of people would want in a made for VR MMO.


Hey Sploosh, glad to see you back. We, and maybe especially I, want very much to make Factions into a first rate, fully immersive game, which is best experienced (by far) in VR. It is HARD though to get right. And there are very few examples to work off of. Here are the challenges:

1- First person combat, wielding your sword in real time etc... Is just not going to happen in a non-instanced MMO any time soon. You need absolute minimum of 20ms response time to track your hand movements and not detect the lag. Average ping times in small multiplayer games with "local-ish" servers like chivalry, Battlefield, call of duty is about 50ms, standard large scale AAA MMO response times are somewhere around 150ms, which is FAR too much for 1:1 hand tracking to be accurate. Then given the fact that we are a very small team with extremely limited resources, it's just not an approachable goal for us. I have also yet to find a good "click to swing" MMO that feels right. The combat in all of them just feels bad. A AAA studio cannot accomplish this feat right now and make it feel good and fair. Maybe as internet links improve throughout the world and computing power increases, this will be possible in a second iteration of Factions (of course this is all of our dreams), but not possible for now. So given that, how to proceed...

2- Input has not been really solidified for VR up until last week's Oculus announcement, which really more or less brings them in line with the VIVE's input.. This SUCKED waiting, and cost us over a year of serious VR dev time. But we feel that the wand type controllers will be a great solution for our game eventually.

3- Our game's abilities and combat works like this: You target something and trigger an ability on that target. We feel this is the best combat/ ability system available for an MMO. But we must somehow make it play well in VR. I have some good ideas on this, but as I said earlier, it's only been a week since we have known the common input solution for Oculus and VIVE. Now that we do, we can start developing towards it. This will be months until we have a chance to really test some of these ideas though. They range from bringing up a "comms rose" type of interface with available actions and very slightly moving your head in the direction of the ability you want to select, to using the analog sticks / trackpads to select from a list of abilities and activate them, much like an ability bar, this would mean one stick to cycle through your ability bar, the other would control your character's movement.

4- We won't lock FPS view, or one control scheme, most MMO gamers like 3rd person currently and we are still committed to a great monitor gaming experience. However, if VR adoption rates are as good as we're all hoping, I hope we can make a server where FPS and VR control scheme is locked.

We are doing the best with the limited resources we have. Thankfully we now know what we are developing towards at least! Expect more on VR in the coming months as we devote more time to it.
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Re: More Questions

Postby Khranos » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:37 pm

Even though I don't have a VR headset (yet!), do you plan on catering more towards a specific brand, or somehow making it work with them all? I know there's already about 4 different large brands entering the market, all with different ways of achieving an action, and I can only assume that number will grow.
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Re: More Questions

Postby Triadian » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:39 pm

2 of us already own an oculus - so we will be using those primarily for testing and dveloping on

hopefully we can get hold of at least 1 of the others to iron out specific problems or at least send dev builds to someone who does have one.
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Re: More Questions

Postby TheeLord » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:41 pm

The SteamVR SDK isn't hardware dependant, so we will probably use that as the VR rendering backend. If for some reason that doesn't work out there are other Open source options as well. We more then likely won't be tied down by manufacturer.
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Re: More Questions

Postby Jetcutter » Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:14 pm

I'd get an oculus, but I'm afraid the first person view would cause me to lose my cookies ;)
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Re: More Questions

Postby TheeLord » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:08 am

Jetcutter wrote:I'd get an oculus, but I'm afraid the first person view would cause me to lose my cookies ;)

yuup, not sure how the new 90hz version will help, but first person view is insta-sick for lots of people (luckily not me) Most games have actually been having better luck with 3rd person cameras surprisingly enough.
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Re: More Questions

Postby Khranos » Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:59 pm

I'm more on the Vive bandwagon, only because I don't approve of the oculus buyout. I could see first person being somewhat sickening to those who have motion sickness, however. Guess I'll just have to wait and see how that goes...
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Re: More Questions

Postby Jetcutter » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:22 am

I'm not trying to incite "oculus" as a brand, guess I meant to say the whole FPS view gets me off kilter, Hell, I'm afraid to clean my own gutters. :P
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