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QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby TheeLord » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:34 pm

Even though you haven't played Factions, surely it's still your favorite sandbox of all time! :o Hence, what is your second favorite?? There are so many survival and sandbox games available now, so much variety and options to choose from. I would like to hear why you like the games you do and what ideas are worthy of us looking into or what ideas you hated from these other games? We want to knock the socks off of all them, but we need to know exactly what is good and bad about them first in your opinions.

Some of the sandbox and/or survival games I can think of off the top of my head that I've played personally, just to stir your thoughts:

-Star Wars Galaxies
-EVE Online
-Darkfall
-Mortal Online
-Xsyon
-The Forest
-7 Days to die
-Stranded Deep
-ARK: Survival Evolved
-Life is Feudal
-Salem
-Minecraft
-Rust
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby Jetcutter » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:02 am

Been on a RL survival game hunt of late:
Stranded deep, The Forest, Tried 7 Days 2 die, but then they made it FPV only, so, no Mas.
Realm Explorer, (Voxel game) And doing a few God Games to include pre-purchase of Universim, and Reus.
Space Engineers/Medieval Engineers.
Still Love my RTS genre, (C and C, and strarted Act of Aggression), And Kyn comes out at the end of the month.
Getting ready to try new title tomorrow; Better late than Dead. I guess its escape the Island survival theme.

Sorry so chatty.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby TheeLord » Thu Jul 23, 2015 3:59 pm

Jetcutter wrote:Been on a RL survival game hunt of late:
Stranded deep, The Forest, Tried 7 Days 2 die, but then they made it FPV only, so, no Mas.
Realm Explorer, (Voxel game) And doing a few God Games to include pre-purchase of Universim, and Reus.
Space Engineers/Medieval Engineers.
Still Love my RTS genre, (C and C, and strarted Act of Aggression), And Kyn comes out at the end of the month.
Getting ready to try new title tomorrow; Better late than Dead. I guess its escape the Island survival theme.

Sorry so chatty.


ARK is the best of the MO survival games currently IMO, While their taming method is odd, actually being able to utilize nearly every animal in the world is pretty awesome! Also, character progression is nice. The Forest was decent as well, but bad MP integration and bugs killed it for me. I really liked the graphics and immersion in The Forest. Stranded Deep was lacking content when it first came out, haven't yet tried it since.
I too really liked space engineers, I have Medieval engineers but haven't enjoyed it much yet, I keep trying it every few weeks however. I especially like how SE and ME get's patched every week like clockwork! Something I hope to emulate with Factions once we have a paid release.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby Jetcutter » Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:31 am

TheeLord wrote:
ARK is the best of the MO survival games currently IMO, While their taming method is odd, actually being able to utilize nearly every animal in the world is pretty awesome! Also, character progression is nice.


I may give it a go. Also, If you're into it, H1Z1 on the cheap right now, (Not my Bag)
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby Ameridat » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:52 am

Of the list, SWG is the only one I've played. It was on the EMU. I didn't care for the controls. The EMU was new at the time, and quite vacant. I logged figuring I'd come back later, and never did.

I tried playing MO. Downloaded a trial client (was a free trial weekend). Had multiple tech issues installing, tried to get in, the server was down. Checked the forum and found out it crashes and there's nobody around to reset it. Uninstalled and gave up.

I followed DF during beta. Not my type of game, but I found the design interesting.
I found this video: https://youtu.be/sRBX7WnHprc
... and thought the game looked like fantastic fun. Sort of a medieval FPS. It's something I'd play only if I stumbled into a great guild before joining. I never found one, and by a few months after release lost interest based on stories of cheaters and griefers.

One other that sort of fits is Puzzle Pirates (for real) which a person suggested I might like for the crafting. I played for a few days, doing the same puzzle over and over to pump water out of a pirate ship. Figured that I was obviously missing the point, and uninstalled.

Not much of a favorite sandbox list is it? :-)
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby TheeLord » Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:56 pm

Ameridat wrote:Of the list, SWG is the only one I've played. It was on the EMU. I didn't care for the controls. The EMU was new at the time, and quite vacant. I logged figuring I'd come back later, and never did.

I tried playing MO. Downloaded a trial client (was a free trial weekend). Had multiple tech issues installing, tried to get in, the server was down. Checked the forum and found out it crashes and there's nobody around to reset it. Uninstalled and gave up.

I followed DF during beta. Not my type of game, but I found the design interesting.
I found this video: https://youtu.be/sRBX7WnHprc
... and thought the game looked like fantastic fun. Sort of a medieval FPS. It's something I'd play only if I stumbled into a great guild before joining. I never found one, and by a few months after release lost interest based on stories of cheaters and griefers.

One other that sort of fits is Puzzle Pirates (for real) which a person suggested I might like for the crafting. I played for a few days, doing the same puzzle over and over to pump water out of a pirate ship. Figured that I was obviously missing the point, and uninstalled.

Not much of a favorite sandbox list is it? :-)


lol, that might be the worst favorite sandbox list i've ever seen! I think you've said before you weren't much of a gamer, but theres gotta be some reason you are so interested in MMOs and the sandbox MMO genre. What makes you tick?? I am genuinely confused. :D
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby Triadian » Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:23 pm

i used to love puzzle pirates !!!!
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby Ameridat » Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:15 pm

TheeLord wrote:... but theres gotta be some reason you are so interested in MMOs and the sandbox MMO genre. What makes you tick?? I am genuinely confused. :D


I started MMOs with WoW because a friend and LAN party buddy wouldn't stop bugging me to play with him and his friends.

Long story short, I was out of work, sitting on a huge pile of HP server hardware, and stumbled into MMOWorkshop.com home of Torque MMO Kit (terrible name, it's not a kit, it's a stripped down middleware MMO framework). I thought, buy the art, fix up the engine, this should be easy. Game in 6 months! That was 2007.

Most of the devs there were sandboxers (SWG or UO style), the rest were old-schoolers from EQ. I'd listen to them talk, I talked with testers from my own game, I found one guy who was super knowledgeable about Sandbox and had him put together a desired feature list.

I was blown away. There was no way I could build that out of a framework designed around cloning EQ classic.

However, I did and still do find the design fascinating.

I don't like new-school MMORPGs. I don't care if I never see another "kill 10 rats" quest in my life. I don't like how modern mechanics have killed guilds and the communities.

I would rather explore, craft, grind, and hang out with guildies.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby Triadian » Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:14 pm

Ameridat wrote: I found one guy who was super knowledgeable about Sandbox and had him put together a desired feature list.

I was blown away. There was no way I could build that out of a framework designed around cloning EQ classic.


show us the list or it didn't happen :P
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby Ameridat » Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:29 pm

Sure, I'll look for it. Everything's archived.

He did an excellent job. I felt terrible to tell him I couldn't pull it off.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby Ameridat » Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:02 pm

Didn't see it first pass search. Did find another guys, but it wasn't as good.

I'll try to do it from memory:

notes: PC = player character

The ultimate goal of a Sandbox is simulation of an environment where PCs interact as inhabitants of a real world (aka the world is their reality). As such, keeping the world real for them through their interaction with the world including mobs, items, NPCs, and other PCs with as much detail as reasonably possible, and with as many mechanics as reasonably possible, should be emphasis.

Classless - PC capabilities are driven by skills. Skills are driven by use, training (not just raising skill value, providing them new UIs [mechanisms] for using their skills), and a bit of luck (skill addons).

The entire world is overland or directly connected with overland, without instancing of any kind.

Goods are physical objects in the world. As such they need to be transported. Transportation is done by PCs with wagons carriages drawn by horse.

Banks or storage locations are not interconnected. Throwing iron ore in a storage facility in Marshallton does not show up in a storage facility in Thorndale.

The amount of weight a person can carry is limited. The distance a person can walk is limited. Mounts work like rental cars where you pay a fee for the horse plus deposit. Returning the horse to a livery in another town returns the deposit.

You don't carry a horse in your pocket. Horses left standing around can wander off (despawn) or be stolen.

PC with appropriate skills can build anything anywhere. If you aren't a carpenter you need to hire one (another PC) to build for you. Carpenters harvest or purchase materials for building.

Once built, a building can have contents based on 'slots' in the building. Hang paintings, have plants on tables, and furniture all in slots for each class of item.

The player city politics part is fuzzy. I don't remember it all other than player cities are cooperatively formed. Houses in the city decay over time. Decayed houses are resold or demolished.

NPC directed activity isn't a major factor in the game, but not in contradiction to the design. However, most activity is based on the PC needs... I want, I need, I would like to have, I would like to do.

He spent quite a bit of time discussing crafting and how it affects itemization (ore to bars to nails, sold by a blacksmith to a carpenter for example). Also how crafted items can vary greatly from one crafter to another based on skill and the quality of materials used (a greatsword smithed by an amateur with crap materials would be significantly inferior to one made by a master with quality materials). Harvester skill and location of harvested source (ore in a mine, wood in a forest) affect raw material quality.

I think that's most of it.
Last edited by Ameridat on Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby Triadian » Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:09 pm

ok cool we tick every one of those phew....
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby Ameridat » Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:14 pm

I think it would be a freakin' awesome game. :-)
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby Triadian » Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:06 pm

not would be - WILL be :P
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby TheeLord » Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:22 pm

Yea.. That outline is nearly identical to what we are doing. I'll just highlight the couple points that I find a tad dissimilar.

Ameridat wrote:The amount of weight a person can carry is limited. The distance a person can walk is limited. Mounts work like rental cars where you pay a fee for the horse plus deposit. Returning the horse to a livery in another town returns the deposit.

That will be possible in Factions, except in our case, the horses are owned by players also, can be rented from player created and owned shops.

Ameridat wrote:Once built, a building can have contents based on 'slots' in the building. Hang paintings, have plants on tables, and furniture all in slots for each class of item.

Again, I think we do one better, you can put anything you want inside the house, there are no 'slots' in our buildings. Objects will either be hanging or resting objects, as long as they are either on a horizontal or vertical surface respectively, you can put em there.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby Ameridat » Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:45 pm

Triadian wrote:not would be - WILL be :P


Accidental. Will be is fine with me too.

One thing I missed in this was the PVP system. I'm biased there because I'm not a PVPer.

He talked about Wolves :twisted:

Sheep :|

and guard dogs 8-)

along with a system of encounter flagging, with innocents, criminals, and hunters (not sure the term he used).


I think that tied in with faction relations too, so that if you PK an innocent in your own faction, you lose rep. PK an enemy faction and gain rep.

From what I remember, that was from Ultima Online, but maybe others since UO patterned many mechanics off of text MUDs.

Personally I don't care for it. Although I do see why it exists. Otherwise you have a world with no bad-guys. But I question if there's enough reward for the good-guys, and whether that reward would be exploited.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby Triadian » Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:01 am

pvp i think is one of the hardest things to get right, people do it for many different reasons and thus you have to supply them with rewards based on their reasons for doing it, the main thing that is the biggest issue for most people is either limiting them to just pvp people who want to pvp and then restricting them to not pvp those who dont want to pvp, but that of course rules out those types that want to kill everyone and anyone, so we need to somehow define a system that discourages them from just killing everyone. its a very fine line, and one which i personally dont want to define because im one of those that doesnt really like the pvp people that just want to kill everyone and anyone so i hope we get some pvp type people to tell us why they pvp and what they want to gain and what they dont want to lose while they gain.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby Jetcutter » Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 am

Triadian wrote:pvp i think is one of the hardest things to get right, people do it for many different reasons and thus you have to supply them with rewards based on their reasons for doing it, the main thing that is the biggest issue for most people is either limiting them to just pvp people who want to pvp and then restricting them to not pvp those who dont want to pvp, but that of course rules out those types that want to kill everyone and anyone, so we need to somehow define a system that discourages them from just killing everyone. its a very fine line, and one which i personally dont want to define because im one of those that doesnt really like the pvp people that just want to kill everyone and anyone so i hope we get some pvp type people to tell us why they pvp and what they want to gain and what they dont want to lose while they gain.

I'll weigh in later on this.. holding comments for now.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby Ameridat » Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:42 pm

Triadian wrote:... the pvp people that just want to kill everyone and anyone


I have 2 opinions, and they are contradictory, they won't work together at the same time.

Common to both is that I don't believe it's possible to have a full freedom sandbox and not have full freedom with regard to PK. I think not having full freedom PK changes gameplay sufficiently that the game shifts direction toward a PVE sandbox and people don't understand PVE sandbox and will confuse it with a themepark.

I see two options:

1) Minimize the desirability of flagging as a criminal.

2) Minimize the undesirability of being killed by a criminal.

As I see it, #1 would be a preferred design choice if you don't want PK as a huge part of the game. #2 would be better if you do want PK as a large part of the game.

Keep in mind, I'm not a PVPer so my understanding of these could be VERY wrong. :!:

My ideas on implementing #1 are: Kill an innocent and you flag red. You keep your red flag until character death. Red flag cuts off access to anything other than criminal faction services. As a red you're a free kill for anyone, and perhaps a bonus.

On implementing #2: Die to a criminal, easy respawn, minimal penalty (if any), a few minutes of protection from PK unless you attack a player character (eliminates respawn camping). For the criminal, red flag wears off in a couple minutes and you're back to being an innocent.


#1 is based on (in my understanding) traditional sandbox design. Wolves, sheep, guard dogs.

#2 is closer to FPS deathmatch. Oh crap, I got killed, run back and keep playing.


Personally I favor #2. It doesn't restrict the 'I want to kill everyone in sight' crowd. It doesn't sting so badly that the sheep ragequit (providing anti-griefing measures are created).

However, I also favor #1 in that it's more traditional to what I know of about sandbox design.


Repeated for emphasis: Keep in mind, I'm not a PVPer so my understanding of these could be VERY wrong. :!:

EDIT: One thing I will note, I'm not sure if criminal should apply if, for example, two factions or guilds are at war. If my guild is at war with another and I kill an enemy, I'm flagged so anyone in game that runs into me can kill me? I don't know if I like that.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby TheeLord » Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:53 pm

So these are the things we know for sure:

-When a player attacks another player whom they are not at war they will suffer some "Immorality" points, many more if they kill that player. If they loot items, steal from a container that isn't there, destroy someone elses object etc.. etc.. they will gain more "immorality" points.
-When a player dies they suffer a small base death penalty and an additional penalty based on how many immorality points they have racked up. This penalty can get pretty serious if you've been especially naughty. We will be sure players are aware of this whenever they do something bad, so that they can adjust their behavior if they choose to.

This is already roughly in game, but anything beyond this system to prevent "griefing" is still up for discussion.

I especially like the idea of a very "bad" player being killable without penalty to anyone, and maybe provide some built-in incentive to doing so. Maybe we can remove some of your immorality points when you kill another highly immoral player? This might keep the griefers hunting eachother more then they hunt innocent players? Just an idea..
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby Ameridat » Sun Aug 09, 2015 6:24 am

I'm tossing one more tid-bit, that's probably not applicable, but it struck me as interesting.

One of the new Asian themeparks established a system where flagging was determined by guild.

Join an "at war" guild, and you are flagged for PVP all the time against anyone else who is also in an "at war" guild. If a guild isn't "at war", you're not flagged, can't flag, and cant attack or be attacked by anyone.

I've been thinking about this, and I like it a lot for my own work. Mentioned it here because it's new and FACTIONS team has to stay on top of all the latest developments. :-)
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby Triadian » Sun Aug 09, 2015 8:19 am

while we have some of it in already as in if your faction is at war with another faction you and that factions players become kill on sight, the bit im personally not keen on is limiting players to become immune to attacking as that would restrict people from doing something and one of our groundrules is to not restrict players (where possible)

one thing we do hope happens is that factions will have reputations in that if you attack X faction you know that X factions army will hunt you down and kill you thus they become unattackable not through any restriction that the devs added but due to the way X factions players have played their characters.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby Avius37 » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:50 am

I think it would be a neat incentive to have a sphere of influence around an enemy faction, territory, outpost. The longer/more stuff you kill in an enemy faction the more benefits from loot drops/skill gains/bounties. but also the longer you are there the more a bounty is incurred on your head, making you a target for the enemy faction. This would setup pvp on attack defense standards, with incentive to flirt with destruction. It might not prevent, but it would certainly help from someone camping the same people over and over again.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby whiskers434 » Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:49 am

Avius37 wrote:I think it would be a neat incentive to have a sphere of influence around an enemy faction, territory, outpost.


yeah where a faction has territory or bases the land becomes claimed by that faction. Which means that faction controls that land and anyone else coming into that land will clearly see that this land is owned by that faction.

Avius37 wrote:The longer/more stuff you kill in an enemy faction the more benefits from loot drops/skill gains/bounties. but also the longer you are there the more a bounty is incurred on your head, making you a target for the enemy faction.


loot drops are not effected by any faction stuff

yes conducting a raid on an enemy faction will level up your skills as you us them but there are other ways to level up all your skills

Also the more raiding you do the better you become probably as you learn the best way to breach a factions defenses

yes the more you raid the enemy faction the more your faction reputation with that faction decreases meaning becoming enemy's at war which means your probably become kill on sight for that faction and they will probably come and raid you back

so remember kids actions have consequences

Avius37 wrote:This would setup pvp on attack defense standards, with incentive to flirt with destruction. It might not prevent, but it would certainly help from someone camping the same people over and over again.


i was maybe thinking about a diplomacy system for factions to give them the ability to negotiate

like if a faction has concord another faction, instead of completely destroying the faction they could negotiate a surrender agreement, like pay us 1000 gold every month and we won't destroy you or even join our vassal and support our cause for world domination etc

lots of agreements and treaties could be negotiated through the diplomacy system maybe peace agreements, alliances, trade agreements or land access agreements but it would all be down to the players

all physical items traded within the diplomacy system should still be physical items in the world so nothing gets teleported to the other faction so someone would have to come and collect or go and deliver the items to the other faction

so if the trade agreement is 1000 wood for 250 iron every week the factions have to transport these items between the factions, this could probably be handled by the mission system to make it easier for players and factions
think a reset and wipe will fix that...
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Your 2nd favorite sandbox game?

Postby Avius37 » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:17 am

I like Surrender terms, that would certainly prevent a faction from rolling another, but perhaps have it at a standard like X resources per member, that way it will help reduce faction dead weight, and bring a faction together as a community. This would also help against a tyrannical faction from imposing nearly impossible limits to a bargain.
I like the idea of putting a poaching system in place to help steal enemy factions resources. having a points system in place to monitor the amount of points single people are bringing up against an enemy faction could really show individual worth, and can thus be rewarded. This could also create a friendly competition. Poaching could be any resource from bear meat, to iron, to lumber, and anything in between.
I feel that this can propel pvp warfare, and help with alliance building all around. Starving out a city under siege is a real historic process, one I don't think should be overlooked.
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