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QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoying ?

Postby Triadian » Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:50 am

So, this week i would like to touch upon that wonderful topic of kill stealing aka KS

for those of you who are not in the know about this much hated but much loved also term lets give you a perfect KS scenario..

A Hunter is hiding up a tree waiting for all those lil rabbits to come hopping past, he readies his bow and splat right through the eye socket... while climbing down the tree to go fetch his prized fluffy trophy he sees Triadian the rogue running down the street with the rabbit firmly tucked under his arm...

The hunter has just been KS'd ...

so the term quite literary means to steal a kill (and any loot it may contain).

most games have resorted to artificially placing rules on kills such as no-one else can loot it for 5 minutes or whatever.
some even made the rule that the first person to hurt it gets the loot regardless of who did the most damage, some chose most damage but pretty much all never solved the problem but just made it clearly defined

so what would your solution to the above problem be ???

A: make all loots player owned for a set amount of time
B: allow the hunter to shoot the rogue in the arm forcing him to drop the rabbit
C: First damage gets loot
D: Most Damage gets loot
E: all players get a choice of loot based on damage they did. (example 2 players kill a rabbit one does 80% and gets the body, the other does 20% and only gets the tail and foot)
F: don't solve it its realistic and what a true sandbox should have

how would you solve Kill Stealing or should we even solve it at all ???

comments and thoughts as usual.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby austino » Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:25 am

I like option B. I think that you should be able to do whatever you like in Factions, and that goes for the victim as well. If some joker steals your rabbit, kill him!
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby a1pha0m3g4 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:59 pm

I think EVE did it best. A player can steal anything that's not properly locked with no penalty. The player who owned the stolen item could open fire at the thief at will. This hapened to me when some guy stole my ore, and I opend fire on him. However I didnt know that he could open fire on me after I iniciated hostility, so long story short, he blew me up ... he had 3 cannons and I had a measly gun ... anyways after that I started anchoring crates and seting passwords so no one would steal them.
There are pricks in real life, and there are pricks in these games to, so if one does that to you you beat them up, simple as that. So that would be option B but with alot more shots.
Maybe next time the hunter would set some traps on the vincinity to keep him from stealing. Or maybe a special kind of arrow that marked him for a few minutes for you to track him and prevent him from entering towns without alerting the guards.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby Blah64 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:37 am

B&F seem the same to me, and would be my choice.

Kill stealing is an easy way to make yourself an enemy. There will rarely be an item to steal that is worth making an enemy of a player/faction.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby noizex » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:37 am

Problem of "kill stealing" exists mostly in games where you can't kill players. In every game I played where you actually can kill players, player are much more cautious. In PvE themeparks, they need to put some system in action that allows tagging, because you have no other meants to prevent player from doing it.

If you can kill the thief, I think thats enough to keep him from stealing most of the time :)
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby Triadian » Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:42 am

Blah64 wrote:B&F seem the same to me, and would be my choice.

the difference between B & F are quite different.

F = do nothing other than let them live in a pvp environment.

B = a special attack that aims directly for last looted item, if the ranged attack is successful then that item will be dropped on the floor, if the system detects that the loot should be yours in someway then you will have a very high chance of hitting than if you were say a nasty rogue/hunter who aimed for loot specifically. ofc the item can be picked up again but at least it would slow down your theif to allow you to get closer or get more shots in and no doubt panic that they had been caught.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby Khranos » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:08 am

I've got to say that option B is more realistic than even option F, as everybody else said. If you're already taking the limits in other aspects to be as realistic as possible, it shouldn't be toned down for kill stealing (No matter how annoying it is).

You've also got to keep in mind, it's not like you can't steal kills yourself. Like Blah64 said, kill stealing makes enemies, so if somebody steals something from you, you're probably going to keep going after them until you kill them to get the item back, or steal one of theirs.

So I've definitely got to say option B, or something quite close to it.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby RajCaj » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:55 pm

I'd say option D, but I'd like to know more on if there are plans to introduce a notoriety or flagging system in the game, that assigns specific statuses based on specific activities. (In other words, would looting a creature you don't have rights to flag you as a criminal or open you to combat with the person who rightfully killed it)

Also, how is loot distributed? Is it to be looted on the corpse of the creature, will it drop to the ground near the corpse, or will it be sent to your inventory automatically?

Point being...if there is a regulated flagging system in the game, in effort to discourage full on kill on sight behavior, there needs to be a provision in those rules that would allow a player to openly attack the offender in this situation, without threat of opening themselves up to combat from 3rd parties without consequence.

If there is no flagging or notoriety system in place, then there is no need to create a system that attributes legal ownership rights to loot, and option F would be my choice.....allowing the Hunter to choose whether or not the risk of perusing their loot is worth the risk engaging the rogue (which could also include the rogue having buddies around the corner that could help them in a fight)
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby RajCaj » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:06 pm

Khranos wrote:I've got to say that option B is more realistic than even option F, as everybody else said. If you're already taking the limits in other aspects to be as realistic as possible, it shouldn't be toned down for kill stealing (No matter how annoying it is).

You've also got to keep in mind, it's not like you can't steal kills yourself. Like Blah64 said, kill stealing makes enemies, so if somebody steals something from you, you're probably going to keep going after them until you kill them to get the item back, or steal one of theirs.

So I've definitely got to say option B, or something quite close to it.


I don't know....I think they way option B was explained sounds cool in theory, but might be too much trouble to program that level of realism when you could achieve essentially the same outcome with option F, where the Hunter has the option of attacking the thief & taking back their loot + other spoils of victory if they manage to kill or capture them.

Also, stopping KSing by being able to KS that person isn't all that effective at stopping the behavior if that is your only option for recourse. I've dealt with this scenario extensively playing Lineage 2 and I've seen folks grief other players by doing nothing but KSing them until they left the area. Can't KS the griefer back if they are only after your kills.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby TheeLord » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:22 pm

Thanks again for your wonderful feedback RajCaj! I agree B is a bit ambitious, and I personally like F but it seems a bit too anarchistic for our game design philosophy. I just had a thought. I was coding in our "afterlife" system where you get points of immorality (which translates into stiffer death penalty) for attacking someone unprovoked or killing someone, looting them etc... What if we do this:

-Set players who did significant damage (over 25% of the creatures health, maybe up to top 3 players??) as rightful claimants to the loot.
-These players have the option to remove their claim and allow anyone to loot freely from it.
-If any other player has not been given permission and they loot from the creature, they will incur immorality points for the action.

Seems like a good way to still allow the action, but punish the person doing it.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby RajCaj » Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:08 pm

TheeLord wrote:Thanks again for your wonderful feedback RajCaj! I agree B is a bit ambitious, and I personally like F but it seems a bit too anarchistic for our game design philosophy. I just had a thought. I was coding in our "afterlife" system where you get points of immorality (which translates into stiffer death penalty) for attacking someone unprovoked or killing someone, looting them etc... What if we do this:

-Set players who did significant damage (over 25% of the creatures health, maybe up to top 3 players??) as rightful claimants to the loot.
-These players have the option to remove their claim and allow anyone to loot freely from it.
-If any other player has not been given permission and they loot from the creature, they will incur immorality points for the action.

Seems like a good way to still allow the action, but punish the person doing it.


I too agree that having no notoriety system is a bit chaotic and anarchistic in a game where there is open combat. My experience in many MO-Survival games, where there is open PvP but no rule-set governing player's actions, is that people have a tendency to shoot first, ask questions later. There are some other factors that influence the Kill on Sight mentality in games like H1Z1, but some of that is as a result of there being no consequences for the action.

I like the idea you proposed, but would like to know more about what you guys have in mind for death penalties. Facing an increased skill gain loss, increased resurrection timer, or even a temporary stat loss might be effective enough to govern that kind of behavior, while still allowing people to engage in it if they feel the reward exceeds the risk.

I'm not sure if you've played Ultima Online, but they have one of the most fair & comprehensive notoriety systems I've seen in any MMO game.

Innocent / Neutral Player
- If a neutral player is attacked by another player, the attacker will be flagged as a criminal and can be openly attacked & killed without consequence by anyone in the game
- If a neutral player is killed by a another player, the neutral player will be given the option to assign a murder count to the person that killed them

Criminal Player
- Committing a criminal act will designate a player as a criminal for 2 minutes from the last criminal act
- After 2 minutes of committing no crimes, the player will return to a neutral state
- Criminal acts include:
- Looting a corpse where you didn't deal the majority of the damage, and are not in a party with the person who dealt the majority of the damage
- Attacking or stealing from a neutral player
- Healing or buffing a monster or aggressive creature
- Criminal players are open to combat from anyone in the game, without consequence
- Criminal players that are killed cannot give murder counts to the person that killed them

Murderer Player
- After killing a neutral player, the neutral player has the option to give the killer a murder count
- Spending 5hrs in game works off 1 murder count (could use other mechanics to work off counts)
- Accumulating 5+ murder counts will designate you as a murderer, and open you to combat by anyone without consequence, at any time so long as you have 5+ counts

In all, this system seeks to protect the innocent (neutral player), while still allowing for people to play the role of the criminal or murderer. In some cases, player justice involves attacking an otherwise neutral player that may be skirting the game mechanics to grief you. In this way it differentiates between a player who has to evoke player justice on occasion and people who's playstyle involves killing innocent people on a regular basis.

It's pretty fair in terms of giving slighted players the ability to exact justice against people that have transgressed against them (criminal / murderer status) while still allowing for people to steal & murder if they can back it up.

Lineage 2 has a similar, but much more streamlined version of UO's notoriety system....although it does create some gaps that UO's system seems to address.

Just a little food for thought...
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby TheeLord » Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:25 pm

RajCaj wrote:
TheeLord wrote:Thanks again for your wonderful feedback RajCaj! I agree B is a bit ambitious, and I personally like F but it seems a bit too anarchistic for our game design philosophy. I just had a thought. I was coding in our "afterlife" system where you get points of immorality (which translates into stiffer death penalty) for attacking someone unprovoked or killing someone, looting them etc... What if we do this:

-Set players who did significant damage (over 25% of the creatures health, maybe up to top 3 players??) as rightful claimants to the loot.
-These players have the option to remove their claim and allow anyone to loot freely from it.
-If any other player has not been given permission and they loot from the creature, they will incur immorality points for the action.

Seems like a good way to still allow the action, but punish the person doing it.


I too agree that having no notoriety system is a bit chaotic and anarchistic in a game where there is open combat. My experience in many MO-Survival games, where there is open PvP but no rule-set governing player's actions, is that people have a tendency to shoot first, ask questions later. There are some other factors that influence the Kill on Sight mentality in games like H1Z1, but some of that is as a result of there being no consequences for the action.

I like the idea you proposed, but would like to know more about what you guys have in mind for death penalties. Facing an increased skill gain loss, increased resurrection timer, or even a temporary stat loss might be effective enough to govern that kind of behavior, while still allowing people to engage in it if they feel the reward exceeds the risk.

I'm not sure if you've played Ultima Online, but they have one of the most fair & comprehensive notoriety systems I've seen in any MMO game.

Innocent / Neutral Player
- If a neutral player is attacked by another player, the attacker will be flagged as a criminal and can be openly attacked & killed without consequence by anyone in the game
- If a neutral player is killed by a another player, the neutral player will be given the option to assign a murder count to the person that killed them

Criminal Player
- Committing a criminal act will designate a player as a criminal for 2 minutes from the last criminal act
- After 2 minutes of committing no crimes, the player will return to a neutral state
- Criminal acts include:
- Looting a corpse where you didn't deal the majority of the damage, and are not in a party with the person who dealt the majority of the damage
- Attacking or stealing from a neutral player
- Healing or buffing a monster or aggressive creature
- Criminal players are open to combat from anyone in the game, without consequence
- Criminal players that are killed cannot give murder counts to the person that killed them

Murderer Player
- After killing a neutral player, the neutral player has the option to give the killer a murder count
- Spending 5hrs in game works off 1 murder count (could use other mechanics to work off counts)
- Accumulating 5+ murder counts will designate you as a murderer, and open you to combat by anyone without consequence, at any time so long as you have 5+ counts

In all, this system seeks to protect the innocent (neutral player), while still allowing for people to play the role of the criminal or murderer. In some cases, player justice involves attacking an otherwise neutral player that may be skirting the game mechanics to grief you. In this way it differentiates between a player who has to evoke player justice on occasion and people who's playstyle involves killing innocent people on a regular basis.

It's pretty fair in terms of giving slighted players the ability to exact justice against people that have transgressed against them (criminal / murderer status) while still allowing for people to steal & murder if they can back it up.

Lineage 2 has a similar, but much more streamlined version of UO's notoriety system....although it does create some gaps that UO's system seems to address.

Just a little food for thought...


Currently our death penalty consists of the following:
-Loss of research time
-Loss of attribute points.
There is a base death penalty and we add on additional reductions to both based on how high your immorality is. Your immorality points will be removed over a long period of time.

I have actually not played UO, is it still worth it to try now?? Or will I not gain much from playing it at this point?

I hope our immorality / afterlife system is a little more straightforward then UO's notoriety system you outlined above.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby RajCaj » Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:24 pm

I think your system is definitely more straight forward than UOs. Lineage 2 had an experience loss death penalty that seemed pretty effective at making death in the game consequential, yet isn't punitive to the point where it discouraged conflict & PvP.

In regard to UO....yes, Electronic Arts is still managing Ultima Online and the servers are open....however updates to the game have killed PvP & removed most risk taking.

It is the grand-daddy of commercial Sandbox MMORPGs, and you can still experience the game in it's golden age through private servers.

It's a skill based game where players raise their proficiency in a particular skill by using it, from 0-100%. You're given a max of 700 skill points to spread among 55 different skills....allowing you to max out 7 skills at 100% proficiency, going 50% proficiency across 14 skills, or anything in between.

Not much (if any) quests are available, and play is very wide open in terms of how you contribute to the community. There are plenty of combat & non-combat related arch-types you can fill....blacksmith, tailor, carpenter, alchemist, bow fletcher, warrior, mage, cartographer, miner just to name a few.

There is player housing, but operates differently than I think what you guys are shooting for.

I'm sure you are busy, but I'd definitely recommend trying out one of the classic era private servers if you're looking for some influence or inspiration on specific game mechanics or systems.

At the very least, the Wiki is an interesting read: http://www.uoguide.com/UOGuide:Directory
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby Avius37 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:03 am

I think this can be efficiently handled by having areas of influence around the faction/town the larger the faction, the larger the sphere of influence is around it, where the sphere of two rival factions overlap, have increased bounty/skill gain, but in these areas, anything goes kill stealing, quick looting, and of coarse pvp. I would like the idea of being able to return rivals heads to a bounty officer, the more heads they turn in, the more bounty there is on their head, so if some one is harassing the rival faction. their bounty goes up for a nice return.
-OR
have the spheres of influence, and if your in a rival factions sphere of influence, there is increased bounty/skill gain, but if are killed by rival faction they return your head for increased bounty for poaching their land
this would help prevent someone from harassing the same people over and over again
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby TheeLord » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:22 pm

Avius37 wrote:I think this can be efficiently handled by having areas of influence around the faction/town the larger the faction, the larger the sphere of influence is around it, where the sphere of two rival factions overlap, have increased bounty/skill gain, but in these areas, anything goes kill stealing, quick looting, and of coarse pvp. I would like the idea of being able to return rivals heads to a bounty officer, the more heads they turn in, the more bounty there is on their head, so if some one is harassing the rival faction. their bounty goes up for a nice return.
-OR
have the spheres of influence, and if your in a rival factions sphere of influence, there is increased bounty/skill gain, but if are killed by rival faction they return your head for increased bounty for poaching their land
this would help prevent someone from harassing the same people over and over again


Yea we like the idea of bounties for sure. We will implement bounties in some manner definitely.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby Juspar » Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:33 pm

I'm all for allowing with consequences. Player consequences, not artificial ones.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby TheeLord » Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:03 am

Juspar wrote:I'm all for allowing with consequences. Player consequences, not artificial ones.


One of the bigger deterants we have is our "afterlife" system. You gain immorality points when you do "immoral" actions, when you die these count towards your death penalty. Does this feel like an artificial consequence, or in your mind is it a good way to handle it?
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby Juspar » Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:52 pm

TheeLord wrote:One of the bigger deterants we have is our "afterlife" system. You gain immorality points when you do "immoral" actions, when you die these count towards your death penalty. Does this feel like an artificial consequence, or in your mind is it a good way to handle it?

I like that, but I like the one where a thief is susceptible to punishment by other players more. Maybe direct punishment mitigates the immorality points. Just my first thought on it. I like where you guys are going in general, so I'll throw my 2 cents in, but will undoubtedly be happy regardless.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby Triadian » Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:12 pm

depending how the thief repented would depend on how many immorality points he loses(good thing) howver most thieves only repent while bleeding out :P with a bounty on their heads
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby TheeLord » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:45 pm

Juspar wrote:
TheeLord wrote:One of the bigger deterants we have is our "afterlife" system. You gain immorality points when you do "immoral" actions, when you die these count towards your death penalty. Does this feel like an artificial consequence, or in your mind is it a good way to handle it?

I like that, but I like the one where a thief is susceptible to punishment by other players more. Maybe direct punishment mitigates the immorality points. Just my first thought on it. I like where you guys are going in general, so I'll throw my 2 cents in, but will undoubtedly be happy regardless.


Yup, as Tri said, we will have bounty missions and also automated faction "opinion meter" changes when someone does something bad to you or your other faction members. Of course you could always use the same politicking and payback that goes on in any other sandbox / MO survival game, ignoring our tools, but we hope to think they will be good enough that you won't want to ignore them :D
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby Triadian » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:06 pm

TheeLord wrote: Of course you could always use the same politicking and payback that goes on in any other sandbox / MO survival game, ignoring our tools, but we hope to think they will be good enough that you won't want to ignore them :D

let us know what ours has missing and we will consider implementing the features you need.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby Christopher Walker » Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:37 pm

I think that the player that deals the most damage should be the one to get all the stuff from the kill. Maybe some sort of percentage-of-damage-dealt based system to determine who gets what, if not possible, the kill stealer gets the loot and the other one the XP. Just some ideas
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby TheeLord » Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:53 am

Christopher Walker wrote:I think that the player that deals the most damage should be the one to get all the stuff from the kill. Maybe some sort of percentage-of-damage-dealt based system to determine who gets what, if not possible, the kill stealer gets the loot and the other one the XP. Just some ideas


Thanks so much for your ideas! However we don't give XP since it doesn't really exist in the game. You get skill points in different abilities and attribute points spread through the various attributes your player has (strength, agility, intellect etc.. etc..) when you use them which drives most of your character progression.

As for the loot, don't you think splitting it would feel a bit contrived for our game? We are promoting complete freedom, which probably includes some unfair things occuring also. But we are definitely open to better ideas still.
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Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK : Kill Stealing Realistic or annoyi

Postby Christopher Walker » Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:14 am

Yeah, you're probably right. But has you've said, finding a way to freedom without chaos is important. Guess we'll have to think more about it.
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